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Post by Secondesign on Mar 30, 2010 21:14:05 GMT -5
yeah, older history tends to be more interesting... prolly part of it is because most of the history you learn is of the more recent europe through america to today practically every year.
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Post by orc72 on Mar 31, 2010 19:38:19 GMT -5
that and really since america came in our history stopped being history and more political agenda brainwashing us to beleive we are super heros and everyone else is evil, or "were working on making them less evil"
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Post by Secondesign on Mar 31, 2010 23:37:34 GMT -5
? wouldn't our history always be america since we are americans thus our implies american history? or do you mean the recording of history? which in and of itself you could argue all history is that way only the same to each country even way back in ancient times. though I'm not sure at all where you get the we are super heroes and they are evil thing, I mean, that would only seem to apply in the cold war era and that isn't taught until like... 10th grade or 11th. or maybe the world wars but then in there you have to admit, that it wasn't till american joined in that the tied turned against germany in both cases though there only hitler and his agenda of wiping out certain groups of people is portrayed as evil which you have to admit that a goal of doing such is an evil thing.
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Post by orc72 on Apr 1, 2010 16:28:31 GMT -5
that goal would be evil, if that was hitlers goal and not his administration <.< Though its not always that way. For example, all we know of say..pre b.c. stuff is from stuff we found and figured out by logic. It was based on biased records, but the bias has been tried to taken out. The history after that were taught threw the winners side, but before not so much. As for highlighting america as super heros, take a look at what the chunk of vietnam war lessons about. How we poor napalm on vietnams forest, slaughtered people using sticks and stones and with heavy machine guns and tanks, or, how we were poor poor victims of becoming prisoners of wars? Or even our founding. Brittian had just fought off a big war, which in way was protecting the us, not necessarily directly, but still, then asked for a tax increase, which we werent even paying taxes for the protection britian gave us, and somehow britian becomes the bad guy for wanting taxes then trying to enforce it the only way there stretched military could? Then when making the bad guy britian is defeated by the u.s. perservence, totally not from frances endless help to kick britian while there down, we tax people to form our own government, like what brittian was doing. . Just all the stuff like that =p obviously wwii and cold war apply too, but our history does it all the time.
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Post by Secondesign on Apr 1, 2010 22:40:52 GMT -5
but that was hitlers goal... which is well documented in his own book mein kamf. certainly it wasn't just his goal but those in his upper echelon that believed the same but that makes the whole bunch evil. hmm, only in certain areas can they truly try to be objective about the ancient past where they could find recordings from both sides, which is something they still do for and up to present history. eh? you don't get any teaching about more than the american revolution up to civil war and then the state histories as kids along with the various ancient histories. vietnam would only apply for high schoolers and well. I can say for myself I was never just taught about poor prisoners captured (although that only would apply to WWII and not vietnam... I think you're confusing your wars here. the troops there were killed 100's a day is what you learned). in my classes we were taught all aspects from the napalm to the deaths of troops and how we only got involved there because vietnam was initially a french colony and then when the vietcong rebelled against them the french called for our aid, why that president gave it... not sure, prolly just figured he was helping an ally that we helped before. why he continued it... well, that was all an attempt for him to save face and say we won and routed communism but that obviously didn't work as it was the most hated war. I really can't say I know of any teacher who spoke well of it or claimed we were winners. though either way I still think there is respect and sorrow for our troops that should be owed. so I don't know what history teachign you got, but it clearly wasn't the same as mine. the american revolution does fall under the area of what we learned continually as kids though I don't recall ever learning and feeling that the british were evil doers. just that they were unjustly taxing us so we dumped their tea in the harbor and led to us fighting for freedom. then when you get into high school or maybe even 8th grade you learn a lot more of it in detail with the french and indian war, their enforced taxes without representation which was illegal for them to do to any colony and then even in the war we learned about frances help in their bombarding of a british outpost which helped to win the war allowing us to capture it and how we only won because we used guerilla tactics and how we would've lost otherwise in a fair fight. so maybe as a kid it could be misinterpreted as yeah! we kicked their butts! they were the bad guys! but certainly not in the later history classes when you're older with greater understanding. as a kid it makes sense to teach them that way because that's what they can understand. if they went into the complexities and politics and all that little kids would be going ? huh?
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Post by orc72 on Apr 2, 2010 16:57:21 GMT -5
he wouldnt a world without them, he never said anything about killing them <.< it was just implied. its why they originally work camps, till the work camps became to full I don't recall ever saying kids..though if ya want 6-10 would be the most impressional grades for manipulation. 1-5 we don't care. 11+ we already made up our minds. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_POW/MIA_issue"just that they were unjustly taxing us so we dumped their tea in the harbor and led to us fighting for freedom." unjustly and freedom are big words with brought influenced meanings. They imply tryant. Tyrants are unjust, or unfair to the people, and to escape a tyrants grasp is to become free like when you free a slave. And why wouldn't kids understand politics? Kids go threw politics all the time. They negoate with each other and parents. Over things like bed time and toys, and not about countrys, but all in all the points the same. Heck, teachers compaire wwii to a bunch of kids at a playground all the time. We draw the line for them that this is good and this is bad. Not this is what happened. Noone says Alexander was in the right or wrong for taking over places, we are just told he took over places. If it was in more modern history, we would hear something like Alexander invaded thm because they violated a treaty and expanded beyond there borders which they said they were allowed to do because they had another document saying they could and it was there right, so Alexander liberated the land back for his country. See the difference?
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Post by iziz on Apr 2, 2010 22:49:14 GMT -5
hmmm lots of ancient history comes from written records. like for example, what we know about the egyptians. however, there's plenty of evidence to show that whenever there was a shift in power, the new ruler would often erase anything pertaining to the old "pharoah regime" away. they would even go as far as to erase the old dieties and then enforce their new ones. so we really don't know everything that went on... but just try to piece the stuff we do know together. xD
and, that's probably the same with alexander the great. we don't know much about his expansion other than records which are biased. so of course there isn't any explaining why what he did was wrong. because records like that were most likely destroyed, or not very many xD i bet if you did a really good study on him though, that you'd find much more info on him showing both his good and bad. but, in most history classes we didn't study him very much because there was lots of other ancient history
and the tea thing, was about taxation without representation. i'm pretty sure that is taught in british school's as well. because that is why they were angered and felt like it was unjust.
and there are plenty of people/history teachers who love to give everything wrong the US has done. they love to emphasis that the US imperialism, and when the US tried to remain isolated during both great wars, the failure at the us to take lead with the 14 points, the red scare, and many other fiascoes.
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Post by Secondesign on Apr 3, 2010 0:38:11 GMT -5
that would be incorrect, they didn't start to use them as slave labor until later in the war when bullets and other war materials started to run scarce. their first camps were all death camps in poland. and before that, their first move was crystal night where they went out, found them and smashed their babies heads against walls, shot them, and dragged them into the streets killing as many as they could find. and if you listen to his speeches, he also talks about how they need to be exterminated like rats. there is no mere implications there.
exactly, aren't kids 6-10 therefore that is the most likely "brainwash" age and you did say brainwash therefore my conclusion was only logical
you'll recall that that was what I said we were taught when we were younger before getting to the older where it becomes more accurate.
so then you have no complaints about the gov't expansion today and ignoring basic civil liberties? that's the real reason you figure out the rebellion was for.
hmm, by "negotiated" you mean whined or cried until parents give in. most parents its, no. this is bedtime. go to bed now or punished. and think about it, how often in class were kids asking questions for explanations they didn't understand, all the time, even for basic concepts or what we would view as basic in our current age. this is why in learning you build up your knowledge, or else every kid would be in harvard or there'd only be a few grade levels instead of 12.
indeed, I doubt Alexander left records in his wake that would say he violated treaties.
I mean if anything, you should be going after the other countries that make US to be evil because in US nowadays to teach that another country was wrong or to just give our side without the others would be politically incorrect and against the curriculum, actually, if many people had their way most of the US history taught would be how awful we were. why do you think all those countries loved obama when he went there? because he downgraded and insulted americans. if you want manipulated control, just look at Iran.
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Post by orc72 on Apr 3, 2010 22:03:41 GMT -5
said grades 6-10, not age 6-10
So your saying because the kid is smart enough to ask for explanation of something he won't be ale to understand something that he would need an explanation for? Really I don't get it. There is no age that you reach were you will magically be ale to comprehend complex ideas. Obviously someone wont be able to factor before they can multiply or divide, but after you teach them how to multiply and divide there is no reason why they wouldnt be able to understand how to factor. Same for everything else schools teach. The schools baby us by being lazy and only feeding us information they think were ready for when were ready for it, part of it is parent fueled, i mean wouldnt want a kindergardner learning about holocaust or sex, but the rest is just stupid assumption. No child left behind means lowering the bar enough that no child gets ahead. Raise the bar to the top and give them enough tools and explanation and every one of those children will figure out there own way over the top, after all its what they been doing there entire lives, or do we just magically know how to walk as soon as we turn 2, and can talk in sentences as soon as we turn 4, and all that stuff we did on our own to let us do that just habit?
first off, countrys don't make the us out to look evil, they make the us out to look stupid. And why would i go against them when I agree with them? What was the last thing the u.s. has done that you were proud of? All we ever do in international affairs is bring guns to knife fights, and say everyone involved is stupid, you all should ignore your culture upbringing and how thigns have worked here for centerays and do it like we do, oh and for blowing up half your beautiful city and killing most of the enacting government your now indebted to us, oh and your welcome. We're now gonna go over herea nd ignore you until you either attack us or we elect someone with a personal vendetta against you. Good luck prepairing for that man!
Im an anarchist if you remember right. Im against all systems of government. However in a partner ship like the one between a governing body and a colony, i see no probelm for the governing body that protects the colony to ask for money to do so when they need it. AFterall, that is part of the partnership, colony gives up certain rights or wealth to the government, government protects the colony. When the want becomes too much the colony throws over the gov and makes a new one. Its elementray factor really, though I think the us thinking a tiny tax was enough to be the lines was outragious.
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Post by Secondesign on Apr 4, 2010 0:42:45 GMT -5
you can't just start from the top with information, it has to build up, your mind has to develope deeper reasoning abilities, comprehension, and understanding. like you said, you have to learn to multiple and divide before you can factor and for some how long does it take to multiply? its not an instantaneous thing where oh, I learned it once I can move on. just because you get that 2x4=8 doesn't mean you'll instantly figure out that 2x2x2=8 otherwise in basic math tests every kid would get an A once they figured out one equation. so you know better than the school board or parents or psychologists and people who've studied such into what a mind is capable of handling at what age within an expected norm? certainly the fact that the beginning of each school year is really review can be seen as a disappointment, but then, over summer vacation how much of what we learned was forgotten? but I have to say, I prefered getting summer break over not getting it, allowing kids to spend some time doing just plain old kid things instead of the constant learn learn learn work work work mentality. because in play you can learn a lot itself. rofl, the idea of giving them their own tools and explanations sounds nice, but how many kids are going to go, oohh history! I really wanna learn that, yeah! who wants to play outside, screw recess, lets just pop open those text books and have at it. even then it'd still be a gradual understanding and gradual increase in the complexity of knowedge gained. what you ask? going into afganistan after the terrorists, sure it was our fault we created osama by telling him we'd help him out and then leaving him high and dry but that was because the president of that time could've cared less. but just because they got left without their guns and support, does that give them the right to kill innocents? and that wasn't their only attempt to do so and they're still at it. would a peaceful resolution be nice? sure, but it wasn't possible so the only way was to hit the network at its source and I'm glad we did so. education for them or some similar idea of communication with their leaders won't remove their hatred for us, certainly not unless we suddenly agree to eliminate israel. I'm also glad we went to iraq, sure you can argue false pretenses of where were the WMD's but its well known they did have them and biological wmd's were tested on kuati muslims, the mass graves are evidence enough. so I can be glad that at least we ended up stopping the former iraq gov't from expirementing on them further like labrats. and in those countries, the majority of the populations were actually quite glad we were there and many even came to like americans once they got to know the soldiers, maybe cnn didn't like to show it but other networks did. really? you should try watching bbc and other world news agencies beyond just the biased cnn. Iran and the majority of middle east countries do make us out to be evil, especially so since we are the last true supporters of Israel, though that appears to be fading, especially with obama's actions towards them. certainly many european countries its all about "they're dumb and unsophisticated like us". oh, and this is neglecting russia which refers to us in their news by law requirements as "the enemy" or "the hated enemy", they may not say it publicly but copies of their newspapers do get out and translated. but they weren't asking, they were taking, it was an enforced tax that the colony had no say on. that's not a partnership. and that reason there wasn't the only one. you're forgetting the new england restraining act, this act meant that the colony had no access to the sea or fishing which was their way of life, how they got food and money. You take away a fishing towns ability to fish and you're killing that town. they also barred trade with any other nations, this meant no imports so no outside food. it wasn't just one tiny tax for tea, that was just the tipping point.
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